SNCF 2-8-2 Locomotives in France


Class Details by Steve Llanso of Sweat House Media

Class 141 E (Locobase 6069)

Data from I N Jevica's [link] (visited 29 May 2004) and from US Military Railway Service Equipment Data Book -- French Locomotives supplied by Allen Sloan from his extensive collection in March 2004.

EncyclopTdie "Trains de lTgende" - Editions Atlas, reproduced on the French website [link], accessed 1 December 2006, tells us this class was a result of raising the boiler pressure of the previously acquired Ouest 141 class in 1921. Originally procured with a relatively modest 12 bar BP, the Ouest/Etat Mikes developed 1,540 hp at 60 km/h (37 mph). Although the low pressure was chosen for reasons of reliability and maintainability, the Etat wanted more power out of its machines and raised that figure to 14 bar.

The horsepower then jumped to 1,700 hp at 60 km/h (and at 100 km/h -- 62 mph -- the engine still put out 1,000 hp).


Class 141P (Locobase 2467)

Data from US Military Railway Service Equipment Data Book for French Locomotives supplied by Allen Stanley in March 2004 from his extensive Rail Data Exchange. Tube and flue number and diameter (water side) according to Gabriel Bonnin's memoirs ([link] -- consulted August 2002).

SNCF calculation of tractive effort yielded 48,510 lb.

Developing 3,900 hp, according to H. le Fleming (Ransome-Wallis, 1959), these engines were rated at 550 tons for express passenger or 1,200 tons fast freight runs. The design is based on Chapelon's 241.P Mountain.

Bonnin also says these were the highest evolution of the mixed locomotive in France. Ostensibly limited to 65 mph (105 km/h), Bonnin says they ran 125 km/h (78 mph) without a problem.


Class 141R (Locobase 428)

Data from [link], accessed 9 Jan 2007. See also [link], last accessed 13 May 2012 and table from the Swiss website [link], later accessed at [link], 1 March 2018; and The R1199 website -- [link], accessed 9 Jan 2007.

The Coalition for Sustainable Rail released two reports in 2016. The first anticipated the detailed analysis found in the second. The first was released on 28 January, entitled "History of the 141 R - A Precursor to CSR's New White Paper", it was found at [link]; and

Shaun McMahon, "The Development of Modern Steam 4: Advanced Internal Boiler Water Treatment,", February 2016 pdf archived at [link], last accessed March 2018.

(Thanks to Luke Barber for his 26 February 2018 email pointing out the 141R's design provenance, explained below).

French locomotives owned a reputation for elegant look and design, but after World War II, an urgent need for pulling power led the French government to contract with Alco, Baldwin, Montreal, and Lima to build 1,000 of these basic engines. According to Pierre BirgT's 8 February 2007 post in a thread on World RailFans, thes following builders supplied the various batches of engines:

Alco

141 R 181 to 440: builders numbers 74054 to 74313; 141 R 861 to 1020: 73934 to 74053, 74833-74853, and 74854-74872; 141 R 1121 to 1160: 74916-74955.

Baldwin

141 R 441 to 700: builders numbers 72254-72513; 141 R 701 to 860: 72699-72763, 72857-72897, and 72928-72981; 141 R 1161 to 1200: 72082-73017, and 73046- 73049, all in 1945.

Canadian Locomotive Works

141 R 1301 to 1340: builders numbers 2368-2407.

Lima

141 R 1 to 180: builders numbers 8867-9046; 141 R 1021 to 1120, builders numbers 9112 -9211.

Montreal Locomotive Works

141 R 1201 to 1300: builders numbers W 75010 -W 75109.

16 were lost at sea, bringing the actual number delivered to 1,324.

Locobase was not sure if this design was an enlargement of the lesser-known 1918 Alcos that went to the Paris-Orleans; see Locobase 15925. Luke Barber's email suggested that the 141R's lineage traces back through a Green Bay & Western light Mikado (the earlier trio produced in 1937 and described in Locobase 4950). He then asserts, as does the French Railway Museum at Mulhouse, that the design actually had its roots in the Light Mikado produced for the United States Railroad Administration in 1918-1919 (Locobase 40).

As respected as the Mulhouse establishment may be, the data don't really support the connection. Barber's link to the GB&W certainly is plausible with respect to the firebox and grate area, even though the 141's firebox heating surface and grate area were smaller. But the USRA machine's boiler was substantially bigger as was its cylinder volume and both American progenitors weighed considerably more as well.

"Basic" meant state-of-the-art in many respects, however, including mechanical stoker, Worthington No3 SAE (for "Europe") feedwater heater, two Nicholson thermic syphons in the firebox, a large combustion chamber, and Boxpok drivers. Indeed, the CSR History paper summarizes the design as "without a doubt the most advanced 2-8-2's ever manufactured in mass quantity."

The first 699 locomotives shared these features

bar frame

US type smoke box door with central access

- Spoke wheels on all coupled axles.

- Cole type Bissel rear truck

- Tenders with axle boxes with bearings

- American type fixed exhaust

- roller bearings on the lead and trailing trucks under the engine.

Tranche 2

N 700 a 1100

-Main drivers (3rd axle) now turned in roller bearings and spoked gave way to the more easily counterbalanced Boxpok type.

-the fixed exhaust was replaced by the renowned Kylchap blastpipe

-The smokebox door now was of the Nord type.

Tranche 3

N 1101 a 1340

--roller bearings on all engine axles, Boxpok drivers all around

--single-casting tender bed

--General Steel Castings integrally cast chassis and cylinders on all but 1200-1240

--GSC Commonwwealth Delta type bissel rear truck.

300 of the class were converted to oil firing. Engines chosen for the conversion came from all four builders:

821-860 (Baldwin), 961 to 1020 (Alco), 1121 to 1160 (Alco), 1161 to 1200 (Baldwin), 1221 to 1300 (Montreal), and 1301 to 1340 (Canadian)

OS Nock (RWC VI, pl 56) comments "although so different from traditional French designs they [the 141Rs] were immediately welcomed by all concerned for their reliability, free steaming, and general freedom from troubles in running." In particular, the 141Rs pulled express trains like the Mistral and the Blue Train from Marseilles to the Italian frontier.

A table from the Mikado 1244 website gives the following tonnage ratings for this class, translated into short tons and mph:

Grade (%) 50 mph 31 mph 18.6 mph

0 990 1,650 2,200

1 440 825 1,023

1.2 330 660 902

2.6 330 385

The R1199 website reports that the average consumption of water & fuel per 100 km (62 sm) came to 20,000 litres (5,284 US gal) of water and 2,000 litres (529 US gal) of fuel oil. Again according to the site, that meant that a fully loaded locomotive had a water range of 150 km (93 sm) and a fuel range of 650 km (404 sm).

The Coalition for Sustainable Rail focuses on a key upgrade--boiler water treatment--applied to some of the 141Rs:

"Traitement Integral Armand (TIA), named after its developer. M. Armand had started working on this system in 1940, basing his investigations on the physio-chemical action of tannin on a soda environment and, at temperatures of locomotive boilers, on the calcium encrusting salts. This system employed a 'disencrustor,ñ consisting of carbonate of soda, phosphate of soda, caustic soda and tannin introduced into the feed water by a distributor."

After the end of World War Two, some of the new 141Rs ,says the CSR report,"were used to prove the efficacy of the new program before fleet-wide deployment. It so significantly reduced problems relating to scale buildup in locomotive boilers, that many boiler repair shops on the SNCF system were closed."

A CSR caption to a photo spells out some specifics:"The treatment was so successful in reducing boiler maintenance costs that three locomotives, numbers 1156, 1158 and 1159, were able to operate a cumulative 5,500,000 miles (8,555,000 km) with fewer than 900 man hours of maintenance attributable to the boiler, or an equivalent of approximately 0.2 man hours per 1000 miles of operation. In total, SNCF reduced boiler maintenance costs

associated with the locomotives 90% while operating the locomotives with washout intervals twice that permitted in the U.S."

Comparisons to French locomotives may be unfair, given the physical destruction of the French railway industry during World War II. Still, Ziel & Eagleson (1973) observe that in 1951 the 141Rs compiled twice the daily mileage of the French-built engines. As steam phased out in the late 60s and early 70s, the SNCF held on the 141Rs the longest; in January 1971 more than 400 were still in service. In an elegaic summary, Ziel and Eagleson add, "For all of the well-earned accolades bestowed on the superb steam power designed and built in France, it fell upon these spartan, mass-produced, simple, and typically American locomotives to suffer the final humiliation -- and to know the bittersweet glory -- of closing out l'ere de Vapeur."

Principal Dimensions by Steve Llanso of Middle Run Media
Class141 E141P141R
Locobase ID6069 2467 428
RailroadSNCFSNCFSNCF
CountryFranceFranceFrance
Whyte2-8-22-8-22-8-2
Number in Class4443181324
Road Numbers141 P. 1 - 141 P.308141R 001-1340
GaugeStdStdStd
Number Built3181324
BuilderSNCFSchneider-Creusotseveral
Year194019411945
Valve GearWalschaertWalschaertWalschaert
Locomotive Length and Weight
Driver Wheelbase (ft / m)18.45 / 5.6217 / 5.18
Engine Wheelbase (ft / m)34.28 / 10.4535.16 / 10.72
Ratio of driving wheelbase to overall engine wheelbase 0.54 0.48
Overall Wheelbase (engine & tender) (ft / m)66.40 / 20.2466.67 / 20.32
Axle Loading (Maximum Weight per Axle) (lbs / kg)41,888 / 19,00044,800 / 20,321
Weight on Drivers (lbs / kg)123,459 / 56,000167,552 / 76,000176,400 / 80,014
Engine Weight (lbs / kg)196,211 / 89,000246,136 / 111,646249,999 / 113,398
Tender Loaded Weight (lbs / kg)167,551 / 76,000
Total Engine and Tender Weight (lbs / kg)417,550 / 189,398
Tender Water Capacity (gals / ML)5808 / 227850 / 29.737920 / 30
Tender Fuel Capacity (oil/coal) (gals/tons / Liters/MT) 6.60 / 613.20 / 1214.60 / 13
Minimum weight of rail (calculated) (lb/yd / kg/m)51 / 25.5070 / 3574 / 37
Geometry Relating to Tractive Effort
Driver Diameter (in / mm)65 / 165064.20 / 163165 / 1651
Boiler Pressure (psi / kPa)203.10 / 1400290.10 / 2000225 / 1550
High Pressure Cylinders (dia x stroke) (in / mm)24.41" x 27.56" / 620x70016.14" x 27.56" / 410x70023.5" x 28" / 597x711
Low Pressure Cylinders (dia x stroke) (in / mm)25.2" x 27.56" / 640x700
Tractive Effort (lbs / kg)43,614 / 19783.0039,108 / 17739.1145,497 / 20637.12
Factor of Adhesion (Weight on Drivers/Tractive Effort) 2.83 4.28 3.88
Heating Ability
Tubes (number - dia) (in / mm)124 - 1.969" / 50125 - 2.125" / 54
Flues (number - dia) (in / mm)26 - 4.921" / 12530 - 5.24" / 133
Flue/Tube length (ft / m)19.03 / 5.8019.69 / 616.99 / 5.18
Firebox Area (sq ft / m2)130.24 / 12.10169 / 15.71293.96 / 27.31
Grate Area (sq ft / m2)40.90 / 3.8045.80 / 4.2655.54 / 5.16
Evaporative Heating Surface (sq ft / m2)2232 / 207.352179 / 202.512700 / 250.84
Superheating Surface (sq ft / m2)689 / 641044 / 97.03704 / 65.40
Combined Heating Surface (sq ft / m2)2921 / 271.353223 / 299.543404 / 316.24
Evaporative Heating Surface/Cylinder Volume149.52333.88192.09
Computations Relating to Power Output (More Information)
Robert LeMassena's Power Computation830713,28712,497
Same as above plus superheater percentage10,30017,53815,121
Same as above but substitute firebox area for grate area32,80064,71680,031
Power L113,39024,23218,218
Power MT956.431275.36910.74

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