Lancashire & Yorkshire 4-6-0 Locomotives in Great_Britain

Class Class 8 "Dreadnought" (Locobase 2307)

See Ahrons (1927) for data. See also "Four-Cylinder Express Locomotive, Lancashire & Yorkshire Ry", The Locomotive Magazine, Volume XV [15] (14 August 1909), p. 148 and the color plate "Blackpool to Manchester Express Taking Water at Full Speed", data in The Locomotive, Volume XVII (15 June 1911), before p. 135; and G. Freeman Allen, Great Railway Photographs of Eric Treacy (London: Peerage Books, 1987), pp. 182-184.

Designer was George Hughes. Like most 20th Century British steam, these locomotives had Belpaire fireboxes. The inside pair of cylinders drove the first pair of drivers, the outside pair turned the second axle.

Noting that keeping everything "inside" was something of a "'religion' among British locomotive designers," OS Nock (RWC IV, pl 48) commented that putting all four valve motions inside may have represented " a little too much of the 'tucking in', because these fine-looking engines never really fulfilled expectations. They were not free-runners, and they were prone to mechanical troubles."

G. Freeman Allen traced the problem back to an "unadventurous" design that included slide valves and Joy valve gear. And Steamindex ([]) cites John Marshall in commenting that they were sluggish and both poor runners and poor steamers.

Fifteen of the class would be completely made over in 1919-1920; see Locobase 2334.

Class Class 8 - superheat (Locobase 2334)

Data from Ahrons (1927); "Superheater Conversion of Lancashire & Yorkshire 4-Cylinder 4-6-0 Express Locomotive", Locomotive Magazine, Volume XXVII [27], No. 345 (14 May 1921), pp. and "L and Y Railway-Four-Cylinder Six-Coupled Ezpress Passenger Locomotve", Engineer, Volume 131 (15 Aprl 1921), pp. 410-411. See also "New Horwich-Built Express Locomotive, LM & SR [sic]", Locomotive Magazine, Volume XXIX [29], No 372 (15 August 1923), pp. 227-228, "L&YR Class 8: LMS 5P: Hughes (Dreadnoughts)" on steamindex at [], last accessed 15 December, 2020; and G. Freeman Allen, Great Railway Photographs of Eric Treacy (London: Peerage Books, 1987), pp. 182-184.

The first fifteen were rebuilds of George Hughes' earlier Dreadnought six-coupled engines [Locobase 2307], but completely made over with 9" (229 mm) piston valves, Walschaerts valve gear, and Horwich superheaters. Boiler diameter stayed the same. The Belpaire firebox was essentially unchanged, but slightly smaller. The four-cylinder drive was divided between two axles. (One can only imagine the difficulty of setting two bulky Walschaerts valve gear trains between the drivers.)

The usual values quoted for the tube heating surface area-1,511 sq ft (140.38 sq m)--represented the fire (internal diameter) side. Although some British locomotive designers preferred to measure from the internal diameter, the majority plumped for the water side (in this case 2") in calculating the areas; Locobase adopts the water side.

(NB: Data refer to the conversions. Later LMS batches apparently had different values as shown in the data for LMS 10447 of the 1922 lot 83 in a 1924 color illustration in Railway Magazine. In that version, tube heating surface area from 157 2" tubes is given as 1,717 sq ft (159.51 sq m). With the firebox area, evaporative heating surface area was 1,893 sq ft (175.87 sq m). Superheater area comes to 430 sq ft (39.95 sq m) and combined heating surface area totals 2,323 sq ft (215.81 sq m).

David Fryer, presented on Bryan Attewell ([] locomotive simulator site -- [] -- gave different boiler dimensions, saying the evaporative heating surface amounted to 2,004 sq ft and the superheater 394 sq ft.)

The 15 rebuilds began in 1920-1921.Tests conducted with a dynamometer car attachedto Class 8 1522 on 5 December 1920 covered 48.8 miles between Manchester and Blackpool. Pulling 385.6 tons (424 short tons) required 278 shovelsful of coal enroute. To Blackpool, the locomotive consumed 75.4 lb per train mile, but only 55 lb on the way back. Average speeds varied only slightly--40.7 mph (65.5 kph) out, 41.6 (67.0 kph) back; top speed recorded on the stretch between Pendelton and Dobble Brow, reaching 65 mph outbound, 61.5 mph return.

(Different crew perhaps? The Engineer's author was puzzled too, but believed the answer lay in how the locomotive had to start its run. From Manchester, 1522 had to climb "two sharp inclines" for which "a good head of steam is required". Leaving Blackpool, the engine headed 'just slightly downhill, then almost level" and then rising gently.). The report also noted that a shovelful of coal weighed approximately 13 lb (5.9 kg) and the rate of firing amounted to 4 shovelsful per minute outbound, 3 on the way back for a total of 203.

Satisfied with the results, Hughes built 35 more in 1921 and followed with 20 more in 1924-1925.

Opinion sharply divides on the result. Metcalf (Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway Locomotives, []) says "they were enormously improved machines, and ranked among the best in the country."

But G. Freeman Allen (in Great Railway Photographs of Eric Treacy, 1987) is graphic about the shortcomings of even the rebuilds: "[The class] notoriously gobbled coal, was a temperamental steamer and a nightmare to keep in steamtight order, and [could give] its crews a sickmaking ride." In particular, Freeman quotes ES Cox who wrote that he'd never seen a higher rate of coal consumption per drawbar-horsepower-hour in his entire career.

Steamindex cites John Marshall (Locomotives of the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway, Volume 3) in a summary of complaints: " the modernized series suffered from leakage in the piston valves, problems in the back pressure relief valves, air being drawn into the smokebox and axlebox lubrication."

Once the Stanier Jubilee and Class 5 locomotives joined the rebuilt Claughtons (known as Patriots or Baby Scots), 59 of the 70 Dreadnoughts were quickly unloaded from 1933 to 1937. But then, says Allen, "inexplicably, the massacre [stopped]. The 11 survivors were taken into works, given new copper fireboxes and tubes, fitted with the latest type of lubricators, and decked out in the full regalia of LMS lined crimson livery." Perhaps these are the engines to which Metcalf refers. Six survived to the BR age (1948) and the last operated until 1951.